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Since nobody objects to Multiline List Items, can we add it?

-- YvesPiguet, 2007-Mar-21

As I already wrote, I second the proposal, Yves. The reasons to have multiline paragraphs stand also for multiline lists (and multiline blockquotes etc.).

But I would also like Creole to continue suggesting the option for blog-style linebreaks.

-- MicheleTomaiuolo, 2007-03-22

Multiline lists would be a useful feature - the question is how many engines already support it and if it would introduce conflicts - so simply adding it would be to early I think. We need more research on this.

-- ChristophSauer, 2007-Mar-23

There will be conflicts anyway, and it isn't the first time we have to decide...

For blog-style linebreaks, I've added them as an option to Nyctergatis.

-- YvesPiguet, 2007-Mar-23

I am in favor of tilde as escape character, but the current description of it seems to be a Creole-only (or ivory-tower) approach. I think we all agree that Creole currently only describes basic markup, and I personally believe that any useful wiki will need extensions. Most of you seem to be against a generic extension container which would simplify integrating extensions. As a result, Creole must expect any markup - and this needs to be escaped. I believe this is incompatible with negative statements as to what may not be escaped.

Unfortunately in my wiki experience the most frequent need for escape character is to escape linking in those wikis preferring CamelCase for linking (as this Creole-Wiki does). Thus even tilde in front of alphabetical characters must be escaping.

I don't known whether making it explicit, that only-this list needs to extended by each individual Wiki, or not giving such a list, or perhaps giving this list only as example is best way forward.

-- Gregor Hagedorn, 2007-03-24

Gregor, I like the GenericExtensionElementProposal. I just had no time to discuss it any further. This should be included in 0.7.

-- Christoph Sauer, 2007-03-27

I wouldn't mind if and only if we don't add a fuzzy rule like "tildes must not be escaped in URLs and in unix paths". I'd object strongly to such a rule.

If the current proposals are all accepted, there would be two escape methods: tildes for single characters, and triple braces for spans. So camel case words could be escaped like this: {{{CamelCaseWord}}}.

I'm not against GenericExtensionElementProposal. I've dropped my proposal to have a safe way to identify plugins with a reversed domain name because people who expressed an opinion were opposed, and I don't mind between << and <<<.

-- YvesPiguet, 2007-Mar-24

I'm strongly against two methods of doing the same thing, especially when both work equally well. If we decide on an escape character, then nowiki becomes useless and should go. If we still need nowiki after an escape character is introduced, then the escape character is useless.

Having more than one way to do something makes it harder to understand existing code and also harder to write new (you need to make decissions as you write and you will probably also try to keep the style consistent).

The moment there is a first "style guide" telling which markup should be used in Creole in which situation (and these are like to appear on wikis if there is a choice) -- we failed.

-- Radomir Dopieralski, 2007-Mar-24

No, nowiki escapes a whole area, while an escape character only escapes a certain markup element. They have different usecases: You use the escape character if you don't have any other choice within regular text. You use nowiki/prefomatted when you want to make a code example etc. where you don't want to carefully go through everything, adding a escape charaters to elements when needed.

We need a clear definition of Nowiki/Preformatted/Extensions. If we don't agree on this, maybe escape characters should become a creole extension then (like tables)? Nowiki/Preformatted should be core though:

I mean what would we do without the three curly braces here when we try to explain code examples

-- Christoph Sauer, 2007-Mar-26

Extensions should be for functionality, not for syntax, imo. If an engine doesn't need subscript, or latex, or images, it makes sense to not implement them: latex requires a huge overhead, images or hypertext links aren't supported in all output formats, etc. But optional syntax just reduces compatibility.

-- YvesPiguet, 2007-Mar-26

Agree with Yves, having the escape character in additions makes little sense -- especially when I can't imagine a sane way of implementing it as a plugin to the general parser (at least not in the "escape markup elements not characters" case). It's either in or out.

Christoph, in a perfect world, the use case of "escaping characters in regular text" wouldn't be needed, as the markup would be selected carefully to never collide with "regular text". It might be an optimistic approach, but I still believe we can achieve this platonic ideal in Creole. Then again, wouldn't introduction of an escape character encourage us to specify sloppy markup?

-- Radomir Dopieralski, 2007-Mar-27

The idea behind making the escape character an addition was this: Until recently, JSPWiki had no escape character either (and still does not have it to the extend we proposed). If somebody came along and tried to display something that was otherwise interpreted as wiki markup, he was told to use the nowiki syntax. Since this was a edge case, nobody so far missed it to much and it was ok to use the nowiki markup for those special cases.

The advantage is that it is a simple rule. EndUsers at first are not confronted with this (for them) very strange concept of "escaping". It also makes it easy to implement a "first shot" for parser developers. But I agree that we would have a better syntax if it would be included in the core. It was just a thought - for the record.

-- Christoph Sauer, 2007-Mar-27

I like the escape character, because it is quick. If Wikis were not about being quick and comfortable, we should use decent xhtml and forget about this discussion. So I personally believe having triple brace for preformatted block, double brace for neutral no-wiki span, and tilde for single character escape is not a clean design, but convenient and reasonable. I have worked for years on a TWiki where CamelCase cannot be turned (as JSPWiki allows), discussion XML Schemata for biodiversity (i.e. tons of unintended CamelCase). With a single character escape it was hard enough, but with braces around every 10th Word or so I probably would have walked away.

-- Gregor Hagedorn, 2007-03-27

Problems with image format#

The current proposal for image is {{file.jpg}}. Unfortunately this collides with the use of {{..}} for templates in MediaWiki. Note also that {{file.jpg}} is only used by two wikis, DokuWiki and Qwik.

-- Martin Budden, 2007-03-29

Aren't templates in a different name space in mediawiki than images? I have an impression this was already discussed...

-- Radomir Dopieralski, 2007-Mar-29

Yes it was, see Talk.Creole 0.1 . -> Brion Vibber had no objections at the WMS Workshop to this format.

--Christoph Sauer, 2007-03-29

Too early for a stable 0.6#

Is it me, or a consensus on escape characters and hyphens for lists wasn't reached? And picking half of the proposal to split nowiki and monospace makes little sense to me.

I ask to postpone Creole 0.6, or to discard it entirely.

-- YvesPiguet, 2007-Apr-4

Does anyone else oppose 0.6? If so, I can postpone it.

-- ChuckSmith, 2007-Apr-4

1. I maintain my criticism of the definition about the scope where tilde is supposed to escape.

a) the limitation seems artificial, since tilde is not more frequent than many other "reserved" character combinations - most notably the leading hyphen, leading equal signs, or the double backslash (which - being a Microsoft path-escape - will occur in many discussions on Microsoft Office). (NB: I consider the exceptions to double-forward slash similarly artificial, but much more harmless)

b) the rules are so complex that it would be severaly tax my programming power to properly convert existing Wiki content to a new wiki that uses Creole. I realise that this is a personal limitation, but I still consider it possible that others will feel similar...

c) the tilde will most likely be re-used by Wikis using mixed Creole-plus-native markup. This makes the complex scope rules even more complex, and in Wikis that support CamelCase links, the rule would include all tilde+alphabetical character - making a scoping rule essentially worthless.

I propose the tilde to be reserved as escape character, requiring all tilde in the content to be escaped through double-tilde. Without this, content migration from mixed mode Creole-Wiki A to Creole-Wiki B will become a nightmare (trying to figure out which tilde in the content used to be escaping, and which is content...)

If we have serious objections, I propose to use double tilde as escape marker.

2. I have quite a bit of reservation why we do not require a blank after the OL/UL hyphen or number sign. Not requiring a blank here seems artificial. Most whitespace rules in the wiki correspond with html/xml whitespace normalization (I consider this an argument for being "intuitive" to a lot of readers, not a technical argument). The difference between "- X" and "-X", or "# X" and "#X" seems to be intuitively significant. Requiring it in Creole would simplify Creole explanations, it would reduce the amount of escaping-analysis needed for the unordered lists. Am I overlooking a good argument, why we have to support both alternative markup styles?

-- Gregor Hagedorn, 2007-04-04

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« This particular version was published on 04-Apr-2007 22:08 by Gregor Hagedorn.