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| Take a look at how the [[HyphenListMarkupProposalWorks]], it is a proof of concept page for demonstration purposes. |
| ----------- |
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| During the [[WikiSym]] workshop, after we decided that a double asterisk would be best for bold, the group decided "unanimous minus two" that the hyphen would be best for bullet lists. However, at this point, ChuckSmith realized due to his research of wiki syntaxes that approximately 90% of wiki engines use asterisks for bullet lists. After the initial desigh [[Creole 0.1]] with hyphens we decided mainly because of that to use asterisk for unnumbered lists as well, see the [[Talk.Lists]] for the story. We now have to concede that we made a mistake and accept the use of asterisk instead of hypens for bullet lists. |
| During the [[WikiSym]] workshop, after we decided that a double asterisk would be best for bold, the group decided "unanimous minus two" that the hyphen would be best for bullet lists. However, at this point, ChuckSmith realized due to his research of wiki syntaxes that approximately 90% of wiki engines use asterisks for bullet lists. After the initial desigh [[Creole 0.1]] with hyphens we decided mainly because of that to use asterisk for unnumbered lists as well, see the [[Talk.Lists]] for the story. We now have to concede that we made a mistake and accept the use of asterisk instead of hyphens for bullet lists. |
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| Considering the facts behind 25% of list items on Wikipedia not using space after the star **and** 25% of lists have items starting with italics or bold[1], this combination is not an [[EdgeCase]]. This means that proposals like [[RequireSpaceAfterBulletProposal]] would make it more difficult to use Creole than necessary. Proposals like this are a sign that something in the design is wrong and accepting this probosal would only cure a symptom. That's why we ask the comunity to accept this new proposal to switch back to the original design on using hypens for unnumbered lists. |
| Considering the facts behind 25% of list items on Wikipedia not using space after the star **and** 25% of lists have items starting with italics or bold[1], this combination is not an [[EdgeCase]]. This means that proposals like [[RequireSpaceAfterBulletProposal]] would make it more difficult to use Creole than necessary. Proposals like this are a sign that something in the design is wrong and accepting this proposal would only cure a symptom. That's why we ask the comunity to accept this new proposal to switch back to the original design on using hyphens for unnumbered lists. |
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| Note that we do not require a space after the hypens. |
| Note that we do not require a space after the hyphens. |
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| * not as frequently used as asterisk |
| * ambiguities with horizontal lines and the common use of two dashes for signatures. |
| * ambiguities with common use of double-hyphen to indicate m-dash in text. |
| * not as frequently used as asterisk in existing wiki markup variants |
| * ambiguities with other use of hypens as first characters in a line: |
| ** horizontal lines |
| ** common use of two dashes for signatures. |
| ** common use of double-hyphen to indicate m-dash in text, although this is not really a disadvantage because m-dashes are __never__ used at the beginning of a line of text. (there's a distinction between [[hyphens and dashes]]) |
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| * no [[BoldAndListsAmbiguity]] |
| * usually the first guess of endusers, (look into your mailbox for the usage of lists, see [[Line Break Case Studies]]) |
| * no [[BoldAndListsAmbiguity]], therefore easier to implement |
| * usually the first guess of end users, (look into your mailbox for the usage of lists, see [[Line Break Case Studies]]) |
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| * hypens are easy to type (usually easier than asterisk) |
| * hyphens are easy to type (usually easier than asterisk) |
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| In the following section we will show solutions for the abiguities already discussed on the [[Talk.Lists]] page involved with hyphens. Opposed to the //bold as the first formatting in a list item//, we consider these combinations as root for ambiguities as [[EdgeCases]]. |
| In the following section we will show solutions for the ambiguities already discussed on the [[Talk.Lists]] page involved with hyphens. Opposed to the //bold as the first formatting in a list item//, we consider these combinations as root for ambiguities as [[EdgeCases]]. |
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| In general a unnumbered list alway has to start with **one** hypen. |
| Horizontal rules are on a line by themselves. One could check for four ore more hypens with nothing else behind it (only space and line break). |
| In general an unnumbered list alway has to start with **one** hyphen. |
| Horizontal rules are on a line by themselves. One could check for four ore more hyphens with nothing else behind it (only space and line break). |
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| This example shows that using a character like a hypen as a first char has actually the same problem as using |
| a equal sign as the first character. While we do not loose a word about the headings so far there has been |
| This example shows that using a character like a hyphen as a first char has actually the same problem as using |
| an equal sign as the first character. While we do not lose a word about the headings so far there has been |
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| If we would use space as a escape character we would not be able to allow space in front of lists for example anymore. |
| If we would use space as an escape character we would not be able to allow space in front of lists for example anymore. |
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| == Remaining Problems Identified in Discussions |
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| [#1] Chuck, please add a reference here (source where you get the number of bold usage in wikipedia from) |
| === Hard line breaks |
|
| A hard line break is a line break that is saved explicitly in the text by putting in a line break character, that is not visible to human readers, but will be used by parsers. A human user inserts this invisible character when he hits return. Some Software products also might insert hard line breaks when they wrap the line, see [[Hard Line Breaks]] for a list. |
|
| The [[ListMarkupLinebreakArgument]] shows that there remains the issue that users, and worse, software, might do hard line breaks before hyphens. This is not a problem special to list markup with hyphens, this also affects all other markup characters that indicate special meaning at the beginning of a line. |
|
| {{{ |
| **START** I think these are realistic examples |
| - either using simple hyphens as here - or the |
| -- much nicer -- n/m-dash way of writing. |
| And the minus sign (like |
| -1) even must be placed there. Finally, whereas |
| in English only trailing hyphen-constructs like |
| sub- and superclass are common, in German also |
| leading hyphen-constructs occur, e.g. subclass and |
| -property. **END** |
| }}} |
|
|
| Here's an example text, using equal signs (headings) and number signs (numbered list). |
|
| {{{ |
| **START** I think these are also realistic |
| examples using #1 equals signs, or #2 number |
| signs in normal text. Where #2 might be frequent, |
| #1 not as frequent. Also someone could use |
| equals signs in texts. Since we allow one |
| = equal sign to be a valid header. Therefore |
| this also causes trouble. So someone could use |
| an example in an exercise where he uses |
| -2 as some value and tells someone should multiply |
| it with a value so that the end result |
| =4. Someone also might use stars as regular |
| footnote markers, etc.. **END** |
| }}} |
|
| It is true, that the first example with hyphens is more frequent than the second example. |
|
| === Implications |
| A user that breaks the line hard (hitting return) has to be aware that he should not use markup characters as the first character in the next line, that have meaning as a first character in a line (no matter if this proposal will be accepted or not). You should not use software that is breaking the line hard, when working with wiki markup. |
|
| * Equal Signs (Headings) |
| * Number Signs (Numbered Lists) |
| * Hyphens (Unnumbered Lists, if this proposal is accepted) |
| * .. |
|
| ---------- |
| [#1] For reference, [[RadomirDopieralski]] wrote the following on [[Talk.Require Space After Bullet Proposal]] on 2007-02-09: [[BulletListOnWikipediaResearch]] |
.