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| I agree, number sign is just as problematic. Thinking about it, it is even worse: I hardly can imagine a paragraph starting with a hyphen (but yes, with bold markup, see below), but many, many paragraphs do start with a number sign: |
| I agree, number sign is just as problematic. Thinking about it, it is even worse: I hardly can imagine a paragraph starting with a hyphen (but yes, with bold markup, see below), but many paragraphs may start with a number sign (essentially whenever custom, referable paragraph numbering is called for): |
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| == Chapter 4: user interface requirements == |
| == Chapter 4: User interface requirements == |
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| renders as: |
| is rendered as: |
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| --- |
| == Chapter 4: user interface requirements == |
| ---- |
| == Chapter 4: User interface requirements == |
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| --- |
| ---- |
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| is rendered as: |
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| * Note that probably all humans and any software I known will only break at whitespace plus after a hyphen, so Christoph's bold-asterisk example does not occur. |
| * Also this seems to be all about bullet versus hyphen, not about requiring a blank after the lead markup. Essentially, requiring a blank makes a minimum of two characters for bullets (bullet symbol plus blank). Note that this whitespace that is visible when rendered, and would remain unchanged under all html/xml whitespace normalization rules... |
| Notes: |
| -Probably all humans and any TextArea handling or text editor software I known will only break at whitespace plus after a hyphen, so Christoph's initial bold-asterisk example does not occur. The asterisk does make much fewer problems. |
| -If you look at raw text editing of this, it may appear that asterisk is a more intuitive symbol for the round bullet. Also it sticks out much better. |
| * Back to requiring a blank after the lead markup: Essentially, requiring a blank makes a minimum of two characters for bullets (bullet symbol plus blank). Note that this whitespace that is visible when rendered, and would remain unchanged under all html/xml whitespace normalization rules... |
| *But note that if we use hyphen instead of asterisk, the blank has much less power, due to languages using dash surrounded by blanks (unlike US-English, where the m-dash is flush with adjacent words). |
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| Gregor, your arguments are valid concerns. However I tried to show here that they are not unique to hyphens. I've tried to summarize the results of our argument in the [[HyphenListMarkupProposal#Remaining Problems Identified in Discussions]]. Thanks, Gregor, Radomir, Yves. Some might think that all this here is a waste of time, I don't think so - It helps us getting creole rock solid. |
|
| -- [[ChristophSauer]], 2007-Apr-17 |
|
| Another way to avoid misinterpreting characters such as stars and sharps at the beginning |
| of a line would be to require a blank line between each block element (not between list items). |
|
| Might be new, so I just mention it, I don't support it yet. |
|
| -- [[YvesPiguet]], 2007-Apr-17 |
|
| That still leaves you with no way to put bold text at a beginning of a paragraph (which is a pretty common case). |
|
| Actually, shouldn't the "bold at the beginning of a paragraph" use case be better (semantically) handled by a level 6 heading styled so that it flows together with the paragraph text? Just wondering... :) |
|
| -- [[Radomir Dopieralski]], 2007-Apr-19 |
|
| A list should beginning at level 1, with a single star or sharp. You could have a paragraph |
| starting with {{{##atan2## is a function which should be known by all electrical engineers}}} |
| which headings wouldn't solve. |
|
| I understand this is a restriction, but probably more benign than other limitations on mixing |
| (or not) lists and preformatted blocks or tables. (Sad remark: of course, double-sharp markup |
| is likely to be rejected by the current poll, so maybe it isn't the right place or time or I'm not |
| the right person to think about that). |
|
| -- [[YvesPiguet]], 2007-Apr-19 |
|
| Polls are to "get the feel of what people think", not for accepting or rejecting proposals. We don't vote here. |
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| I already restart lists on empty lines -- I didn't even thought about doing it any other way, so I probably didn't understand you well. |
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| Yes, always starting lists with a single star/sharp solves most of the use cases, and basically only leaves the pretty rare problem of weird line breaking, which can be worked around by breaking the line differently anyways -- no sense introducing special escape characters for that. |
|
| -- [[Radomir Dopieralski]], 2007-Apr-20 |
|
| I meant that: |
|
| {{{ |
| This is a paragraph |
| * with a line which begins with a star, another one with a hyphen (here it is: |
| -1), and a last one with |
| =. |
|
| * And here is the beginning of a list |
|
| = Title |
| }}} |
|
| And the same for tables, preformatted blocks (to be distinguished from inline nowiki), etc. |
|
| -- [[YvesPiguet]], 2007-Apr-20 |
|
| Neat. |
|
| Inly it's even more artificial than a space after bullet, isn't it? I'm preparing styles for many wikis, and one of frequent requirements is that there is no empty space between a paragraph and following list. They say: if I want an empty line there, I will make it with a BR, but most of the time I don't want it. I even argued for the first two or three times this came up, but then given up -- it's their wiki, after all. |
|
| Just one particular use case, not to dismiss this entirely, of course. Still spaces seem saner to me and not as arbitrary. |
|
| -- [[Radomir Dopieralski]], 2007-Apr-21 |
.