| At line 1 added 11 lines |
| == 2007-02-22 |
| [[Christoph Sauer]] Dear creole parser developers. We have proposed a [[HyphenListMarkupProposal]]. I know that it is quite yet another change, but I think it's crucial. Please read through it carefully before you rant at me, because that was Chucks first response as well ;). I consider this as an important decision towards a Creole version 1.0. If we have sorted this out I feel pretty much that we are through. |
|
| My personal todolist/whishlist towards a Version 1.0 |
|
| * getting through the [[HyphenListMarkupProposal]] discussion. |
| * general escape character (clarify usage of spaces before elements), see [[Escape Character Proposal]] |
| * clarify the usage of placeholder, discuss separate markup for placeholder and plugins/extensions/macros (term is engine specific) see confusion in [[Remove Placeholder Proposal]]. |
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| ------------ |
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| At line 354 added 6 lines |
| I've added a page called [[List Markup Linebreak Argument]] since it repeatedly appeared, to discuss it there. |
|
| --[[Christoph Sauer]], 2007-Apr-14 |
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| ------------------ |
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| {{{ |
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| }}} |
| Requiring a space after the minus solves two first cases. Using proper dashes, real ones or the "--" abbreviation, solves the first and the last one. |
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| Requiring a space after the minus solves two first cases. Using proper dashes, real ones or the "--" abbreviation, solves the last. |
| -- [[Radomir Dopieralski]], 2007-Mar-08 |
| At line 383 added 12 lines |
| Radomir, since you're doing an experiment with your students and you've implemented |
| Creole 0.5, have you got feedback on that star confusion? |
|
| Personally, I don't see a problem that needs to be fixed here. We shouldn't forget {{{##}}} |
| either. |
|
| -- [[YvesPiguet]], 2007-Mar-08 |
|
| The experiment is running, the students had 2 classes so far -- they haven't had to **write** anything to the wiki yet, so it's going kind of slow. I will have a different occasion soon -- another group of students will be writing an exam online, and the teacher wants them to use a wiki for that -- this will be one-time event, so they will have to just read the cheatsheet and start writing right away, concentrating on the content not on the formatting. |
|
| I will open both wikis for viewing once the experiment is done. Right now the access remains restricted so that the students can't cheat and copy each other's work. |
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| Ok, thanks. -- [[YvesPiguet]], 2007-Mar-08 |
|
| I propose to //reject// this proposal, for the following reasons: |
| * star is less common than hyphen in normal text (dialogs and negative numbers); |
| * if the ambiguity with bold markup is really a problem (which I don't think it is), then the ambiguity between numbered lists and monospace should also be discussed now, so that we don't have to regret this decision; |
| * we're running out of markup characters, so it'll be difficult to avoid all ambiguities; since this one and {{{#}}}/{{{##}}} are harmless, we should accept them. |
|
| -- [[YvesPiguet]], 2007-Mar-21 |
|
| //keep// - All my developers tell me (WikiWizard Project, CreolePageFilter) that it is easier to implement. Radomir seems to have problems too, otherwise he would not propose the space after bullet. Users instinctively use hyphens in list, I see it all the time - (e.g. just recently this one: [[http://www.marktberolzheim.de/Wiki.jsp?page=HVNews_blogentry_110307_1]]). The [People] at the WMS Workshop wanted it. Yves, it seems that your parser is pretty advanced so you don't have problems with it, but others have. It helps to make implementations easier and does not hurt the eye of the beholder (as {{{'''''}}} or {{{** *}}} does). Please keep your implementation and allow asterisk in lists additionally, but the least common denominator should be hyphens for lists. |
|
| Yes, we are running out of markup characters, but as long as we can afford it, we should avoid using the same characters, and this proposal does not introduce a new one - the rule of the frequency of usage is very important here: we can have same markup for rare combinations, but not for bold and lists. |
|
| -- [[ChristophSauer]], 2007-Mar-21 |
|
| Radomir's implementation for MoinMoin passed the [[BoldAndListsAmbiguity]] test... |
| Hyphens would require to use the context to disambiguate lists and signatures, so I'm |
| not sure to understand why the implementation would be simpler. |
|
| I much prefer a single markup character for unordered lists to offering both, so I'll |
| switch completely if this proposal is accepted for 0.6. But what do you suggest for {{{##}}}? |
| I think that separating nowiki and monospace is important (we could give up inline |
| nowiki if we accept an escape character, but monospace as a normal style is highly |
| needed, imo). |
|
| Another way to disambiguate {{{**}}} and {{{##}}} would be to always consider them as |
| list markup when they are at the beginning of a line and as style markup elsewhere, |
| e.g. after a space. |
|
| -- [[YvesPiguet]], 2007-Mar-21 |
|
| Except sometimes you'd want to put emphasis ({{{**}}}) on a whole paragraph... |
| If I understood your idea, Yves, it wouldn't be possible anymore. Right? |
|
| -- [[MicheleTomaiuolo]], 2007-03-22 |
|
| No, I meant something like that: |
|
| {{{ |
| A list: |
| ** a single level-2 |
| item spanning two lines |
|
| ** Very important note: style is reset at the |
| end of each paragraph! |
| }}} |
|
| Skipping level-1 list is just for the sake of illustration. Spaces at the beginning or end |
| of lines should be discarded anyway (if they aren't by the Creole parser, I guess they are |
| anyway in HTML). That should be easy to implement with regexps. |
|
| I don't want to restart a whole discussion if everyone agreed on hyphens, though... |
|
| -- [[YvesPiguet]], 2007-03-22 |
|
| People do commonly indent lists, especially second-level nested lists. Also the choice of which one is a list and which is bold seems pretty arbitrary, no? Then again, the meaning of this is easier to guess: |
|
| {{{ |
| A list: |
| ** a single level-2 |
| item spanning two lines |
|
| **Very important note: style is reset at the |
| end of each paragraph! |
| }}} |
|
| -- [[Radomir Dopieralski]], 2007-Mar-22 |
|
| It's done neither in Mediawiki where indenting is used for preformatted blocks, nor in |
| WikiCreole. I don't have experience with other engines. Edge cases are often unintuitive, whatever |
| we choose; that's why I insist on simple and consistent rules. I wouldn't mind your proposition |
| if so many WikiPedia lists hadn't any space. Actually, I don't really dislike it :-) |
|
| -- [[YvesPiguet]], 2007-Mar-22 |
|
| I don't think {{{##}}} would be much of an issue, because I wouldn't expect monospace to be used much at the beginning of numbered lists. However, as Radomir's research suggests, bold is quite common at the beginning of list items. Also, keep in mind that some wiki engines like [[TracWiki]] even require a space before the asterisk or number sign. |
|
| -- [[Chuck Smith]], 2007-Mar-22 |
|
| To be honest, I really liked the original Creole proposal: No nested lists. And thus my first Creole implementation supported * and - for lists, and there was no discussion about nesting. Great! :) |
|
| -- AlexSchroeder, 2007-04-03 |
|
| Christoph wrote: //If you turn on line wrap in an editor, the editor will visually wrap the line. You will find this behavior in almost all editors. Those editors however do NOT insert hard line breaks, that could be confused by parsers so that they make the errors above -- they only do it visually. So far no one has brought up examples of such an editor, or editor option, that inserts hard line breaks into text. Therefore this is considered as an irrelevant argument unless someone provides an example of an editor that is relevant in practice.// |
|
| On Macintosh, text editors BBEdit (commercial) and [[http://www.barebones.com/products/textwrangler/index.shtml|TextWrangler]] (free) have such an option. |
|
| -- [[YvesPiguet]], 2007-04-17 |
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